2021 interview with a Ukrainian trade unionist about 'EU-integration'

'We need economic pragmatism like in China.' Economic basis for anti-maidan sentiment

The following interview was done as part of a larger project about how working people in Ukraine have experienced the socio-economic effects of so-called ‘EU-integration’. I have done similar interviews in Romania as well, and hope to expand the project to other countries of eastern and southern Europe some day.

I had this conversation in mid-2021. The trade-unionist, Kolya (not his real name) works as a mechanic on the state railway company Ukrzaliznytsia.

A train not unlike the one we were in during this interview

Unfortunately I left the more complete notes on this interview in Ukraine, but what I was able to remember is interesting enough.

For a sense of the atmosphere: the interview was conducted on the train as he and his workmate drove around to get to wagons and trains that needed to be repaired. They work 12 hour shifts, 6 days a week, but they are alone on the train, so it’s a relaxed atmosphere. The train, like most, was an old soviet model. There are no buttons in the drivers seat, just mechanical levers. The engine is very loud, and enormous, you need to press yourself against the wall to walk past it as you go from the front of the train to the back. It made me a bit worried with its sputtering and sparks as it was lengthily turned on, like some kind of ancient experimental rocket.

We mainly drove around forested areas like in the picture below, and sometimes through garage cooperatives in the city. As we drove and talked, Kolya showed funny or relevant internet videos to his assistant, or complained about other colleagues.

Kolya talked mainly in Russian (he is from the south of Ukraine) and his colleague talked in surzhik (a mixture of Ukrainian and Russian). One of the topics of discussion before we started the interview was how they recently found surveillance bugs at the trade union office, and how Kolya is annoyed by an excessively patriotic trade unionist with red-black flag badges who got angry when someone spoke in Russian at a meeting.

Me: In 2013/4, how did you feel about EU-integration?

Kolya: I always thought maidan was stupid. I was never a fan. What did they want, going out there and saying they were for everything good and against everything bad? And when it was clear that it would mess up our economy.

Me: Did or do you know anyone among your colleagues that was enthusiastic about EU-integration?

Kolya: We work with one guy, Vasya. He always thought that he’d be able to export the cucumbers he grows to the Germans. So he loved the idea. He still thinks that. You know, there are always some retards (debili), everywhere.

Me: So how did EU-integration change Ukraine?

Kolya: Well first of all, there has never been any ‘EU-integration’. They just get access to our markets, and we can’t sell much to them.

How has it changed things? Well, I don’t know, we have some gay parades, but a lot less industry and jobs.

Me: What about your job and industry, how have things changed?

Kolya: You need to understand how the train industry works, why it exists. [He starts drawing a map of all this on some spare papers]. Before 2014, and still, our train sector exists to transport goods - those produced in Ukraine to the black sea, those produced in Belarus to the black sea, and those produced in Russia to the black sea. Now Ukraine has deindustrialized so there’s less of those goods to transport, we’re in a trade war with Belarus and Russia so there’s less of those to transport. So obviously, that means that there’s less need for the train industry.

So there’s been lots of layoffs, inflation has reduced our wages a lot. Now cleaning women at the company can earn around $100-$200 a month, mechanics around $500, $600, others from $300-$400. And since 2014 our gas bills have gone up hugely, prices in general have gone up. Lots of people in the sector just lost their jobs, now they work in Poland.

Oh, and idiots like Leschenko ruined everything at ukrzaliznitsya. They just put total idiots in charge.

Me: Tell me more about (Serhiy) Leschenko.

Kolya: Well he just doesn’t know anything about railroads. You know he was asked once on television if he knew the width of Ukrainian railroad lines - he had no clue. They put these idiots in charge in order to totally destroy Ukraine’s economy, to fuck everything up. He just sits there, gets 300 thousand hryvnia a month for doing nothing, there’s no safety checks or modernization so people keep dying or getting injured in fires, crashes or because of electric shocks.

Leschenko. He was a member of the supervisory board of Ukrzaliznitsya from 2019-2021. For the rest of his life he worked as an anti-corruption ‘activist’ at various western funded NGOs and newspapers. He is currently a blogger and a deputy at the Ukrainain parliament. His other claims to fame are his involvement in the Trump Manafort scandal and his enjoyment of trendy Kyiv techno clubs

Me: Do you know anyone who works in the EU? How is it?

Kolya: My brother works in Lithuania at a factory. He works 6 days a week, 12 hours, hard work. He gets more money than he’d get here, but he has no life outside it. It’s hard.

Me: What kind of economic regime would you like to see in Ukraine?

Kolya: We need more pragmatism. Like in China. Less ridiculous wars and trade wars and so on, that aren’t in our interest, that only hurt our interests, that are for foreign interests.

As an aside, it’s very interesting contrasting Kolya’s thoughts about EU-integration with what more middle-class, ‘professional progressive activist’ trade unionist types will tell you in Ukraine or other eastern european countries. But I’ll save that for a future post.