From antifascism to Hitlerophilia: translation of a 2015 interview
Interview from the ATO: Anti-fascist Arsenal ultras
Source here. The liberal website ‘Letters’ which published this interview in 2015 has long ago deleted it.
My commentary:
The following interview shows how some Ukrainian leftwingers evolved, mediated by maidan and the ‘Anti-Terrorist Operation’ (ATO) in eastern Ukraine, into admirers of Mussolini. One of the most shocking statements from this ‘antiracist but not antifascist’ is his claim of collective responsibility for the civilian population of South-East Ukraine, a ‘rotting gangrene’ which Ukraine must ‘get rid of’. One should note Human Rights Watch documented numerous cases of torture and murder of the civilian population of South-East Ukraine by precisely the ‘volunteer battalions’ that the individual in today’s interview joined.
In concert with Ukrainian nationalists (and liberals, as my articles on the Minsk agreements have shown), he supported the legal disenfranchisement of millions of people in the South-East of Ukraine. Interestingly, he motivates this by the narrative (popular among both Ukrainian anarchists and nationalists), that the danger of these people lies in how they ‘support Russia’s imperial myths’.
I have found this interview fascinating for quite a long time. As I recall, I found it in Volodymyr Ischenko’s excellent paper, ‘The Ukrainian Left during and after the Maidan Protests’. The interview remains highly relevant, as certain [numerically miniscule] ‘Ukrainian leftwingers’ try to pressure leftwingers in rich countries to send money to their military battalions, which are in fact highly integrated into (if they exist separately at all) with infamous rightwing military groups.
In Ukraine, it is possible to observe a sort of overlap between left-liberals and ethnonationalists. The grounds for this, as the person interviewed says, was 2014: maidan and the war in the east. At a certain point, national/class allegiance took priority over subcultural divisions. ‘Europe or Asia’ was the rallying cry that replaced ‘leftwing or rightwing’, at least for the urbane ‘creative classes’, for whom their leftwing views were always much more related with a conception of chic European trends, rather than something more substantive.
One last, fascinating remark, about the identity of the anonymous ‘Arsenal’ interviewed. A trustworthy source of mine in Ukraine informs me that this is in fact Dominik Bushin, who now goes by the alias of ‘Akula’ (Shark). Born in Chernihiv, central Ukraine, he started off as an ‘autonomous nationalist’ (an anarcho-nationalist group), then entered Arsenal (where he was known as ‘Ethiope’), then joined the Azov Batallion. Already after the war started, he attacked some of his former comrades in Arsenal for their participation in pro-peace demonstrations.
According to an interview with “Akula” in 2018, he joined Azov in 2014 as a grenade-launcher (he also claims to have been a fan for Desna, not Arsenal, but it is predictable that such a figure might try to hide his antifascist past). In the interview, he spends a great deal of time gushing about his dedication (expressed, for instance, by tattoos) to Nordic Paganism, which gels with his statement in the interview I translated, where he makes a reference to Valhalla.
Akula is currently in charge of the telegram channel ‘Tales of the IV Reich’ (recently renamed to ‘Tales of the IV Empire’), which describes itself as a “mouthpiece of the ultraright youth”. I have often translated his posts on my telegram, which are notable for their open Hitlerism and frankness regarding Ukrainian politics. He is apparently nowadays a close ally of ‘Botzman’, or Sergei Korotkikh, another notoriously open neo-nazi member of Azov.
Unfortunately, I have no definite proof of this evolution. The VK channel he used to run, called “Dominik Vorhes”, was long ago deleted. It is probably this VK channel that the following interview refers to. Needless to say, it is predictable that there would be little evidence available online. Even the following interview was long ago deleted from the liberal, pro-euromaidan website it was originally published on. So all I have is the testimony of my source, who I both deeply trust and has been long involved in Ukrainian politics, including the football hooligan scene.
In any case, the fact that in the following interview, a former antifascist Arsenal supporter admits his newfound admiration for Mussolini as a result of fighting alongside rightwingers in Maidan and in the East of Ukraine makes this story fairly believable.
Anyway, onto the interview:
Published Saturday, March 7, 2015
Arsenal Kyiv fans used to stand out on the football fan scene on the backdrop of Ukraine’s dozens of nationalist movements. They stood out for their active anti-fascist position, which, by the standards of Ukrainian realities, was quite dangerous.
It is worth emphasizing that, for obvious reasons, anti-fascism is not popular among Ukrainian fans, so Arsenal fans stand apart from the attitude of fans of other nationalist clubs.
In relation to them, until recently, there was a principle of group responsibility, and they did not receive any concessions from others. There had been numerous fights with Arsenal fans, in which the number of the enemy was many times greater than the number of Arsenal fans. In relation to them, it was permissible to use any available weapon, which is condemned in fights between fans of different clubs, but with similar nationalist views.
It was forbidden to communicate with them and have common affairs, and those who violated this unspoken but understandable prohibition were demonstratively punished and expelled from their movements. In general, Arsenal were in a very aggressive environment, where there seemed to be no way to develop. But the movement gradually grew in size and quality, which aroused even more vicious hatred from others. Now, it seems, football confrontations in Ukraine have come to an end. At least until the end of military hostilities. But still, it is worth delving into the earlier confrontations with Arsenal and why it was not just a conflict between hooligans.
Mutual aggression between nationalists and supporters of the leftwing movement ended with the beginning of Maidan. After repeated meetings of Arsenal fans with representatives of other (nationalist) football movements, it was jointly decided that the country’s problems are common problems, and no one needs to get into trouble with each other given the enormous importance of the events taking place around them: no one had any sympathy for Yanukovych and his administrative apparatus, regardless of their political views.
Thus, representatives of Arsenal, under the guise of the same “ultras” that journalists liked to report on, attended all the hot events of the winter of 2014, despite the fact that visually all the protests took place under nationalist slogans and nationalist symbols.
At first, this did not cause controversy or arguments within the movement. However, by the end of the Maidan events, many anti-fascists, positioning themselves as “Arsenal”, started talking about loyalty to some nationalist points, for example, sympathy for Bandera and the UPA [Ukrainian Insurgent Army], which was previously perceived by these same people as loyalty to Hitler’s Nazism and could have resulted in a beating.
The slogan “Glory to Ukraine!” was also easily accepted, which was previously considered equivalent to the nationalist slogan of Russian nationalists “Glory to Russia!” Only now "Glory to Ukraine!" was perceived as an ordinary expression that did not carry any nationalistic overtones, but the slogan “Glory to Russia!” began to be perceived as the slogan of Russian xenophobes.
Now, with the beginning of Russian aggression in Ukraine, it may seem that the line between anti-fascism and nationalism in Arsenal is completely erased.
LETTERS We talked to an Arsenal activist and he answered a few questions.
LETTERS:
Would you say that your current political views differ from those of, say, two years ago? Tell us what has changed: how, for example, do your current views differ from past ones?
"Arsenal":
Yes, I can say that my views have changed. Maidan, and then the war, which politicians call “ATO”, showed the complete failure of anarchism as an ideology of self-organization in my eyes. Based on this, I can say that my views have transformed from anarchist to conservative-nationalist.
LETTERS:
For you, is there a difference between an “anti-fascist” and a “leftist”?
"Arsenal":
Certainly. I remain an anti-fascist (to be more precise, an anti-racist), but not a leftist.
LETTERS:
I noticed that you often speak very negatively about “communists”. Do you mean specific people (for example, from the Communist Party of Ukraine or Borotba) or communism (in a broad concept) in general?
"Arsenal":
Yes, first of all I mean organizations and parties yearning for the Soviet system. Both the Communist Party of Ukraine and Borotba are among them, as are non-party people who dream of the revival of the USSR.
LETTERS:
Could it be that your negativity about “communism” is caused not so much by disappointment in ideology, but by the fact that the Communist Party of Ukraine and Borotba supported the unfolding of the war in Donbass, and not by disappointment in the “left”?
"Arsenal":
No, this is impossible. I was disappointed not so much in the movement of the left (let me remind you that there are few fighters among the Ukrainian left; the majority hide behind stupid excuses, tying them to far-fetched ideological motives), but in the ideology. I can safely say that theses about class struggle, self-organization, and the abolition of the state are not so much alien as they are ridiculous.
LETTERS:
We read your posts on social networks. You write very negatively about local residents in the ATO. It seems that you are exaggerating a lot, since there are also opposing stories about how people sacrificed everything (and their lives) for the sake of the “United Country”. A comrade from [the Ukrainian volunteer batallion] “Donbas” you know says that the overwhelming majority of people want peace and are ready to support the Ukrainian army. And you say, for instance, “These are not people. They should be deprived of their civil rights. They deserve all this.”
"Arsenal":
I'm not talking about all residents, but about the majority. The comrade from “Donbas”, if this is the one I’m thinking about, is a very kind person in life, and occasionally he puts on rose-colored glasses. Communicating with local residents, I can say that they are all afraid and want the war to end. It doesn't matter to them what the outcome will be. The actual pro-Ukrainian population in Donbass, according to my estimates, is no more than 20-30%. Somewhere around 40-50% are “vatniks”. The remaining percentage of people are nomads who want peace; they don’t care what flag hangs on their city hall.
LETTERS:
Don't you think this is nationalism? Perhaps even Nazism. But, in any case, this is definitely chauvinism.
"Arsenal":
No, I don't think so. I don’t call on people to judge/punish people based on their nationality. I support the operation of the Criminal Code. Terrorist accomplices should be in prison, and not walking the streets, which were liberated by the Ukrainian military at the cost of their own blood.
LETTERS:
Can such views even fit into the worldview of an “anti-fascist”?
"Arsenal":
They can, of course. Is it forbidden for an anti-fascist to hate people who are ardent supporters of the aggressor country and want my death?
LETTERS:
Can you confidently call yourself an anti-fascist now?
"Arenal":
I can call myself 100% anti-racist. Anti-fascist is a broad concept. I can definitely say that I am against any national/racial oppression.
LETTERS:
Don’t you think that behind “anti-racism” you are trying to hide your reluctance to be associated with anti-fascists? It seems that you are not a Nazi, but this does not allow other anti-fascists to say that you have changed your views. View that are, they say, "shamed"[the interviewer uses the term ‘zashkvarenny’, which is prison jargon. Post-soviet culture in general is filled with such references, football hooligan culture especially – trans.]. And that “anti-racism” is the last thing that connects you with the anti-fascist crowd.
"Arsenal":
I am tied to the anti-fascist crowd [tusovka, which a more informal, social term – trans] by friendship, not the subculture. And within the antifa sphere itself there are different types that differ in relation to issues of migration and multiculturalism. That’s why I call myself an anti-fascist, but there were things in fascist Italy that I liked.
LETTERS:
For example?
"Arsenal":
Building a strong vertical of power, destroying the pro-Soviet opposition, positive changes in the economy.
LETTERS:
Do you have arguments on this topic with comrades in the anti-fascist camp?
"Arsenal":
Sometimes, but these people and I are united only by formal intersection in the antifa movement. As a rule, these are cowards or people who consider themselves too smart.
LETTERS:
Are there conflicts with the right on ideological grounds? Do you hide your views in front of them?
"Arsenal":
Most people who are interested in who I am and where I came from know about my participation in football battles on the side of Arsenal Kyiv. I even fought with some before the events on Maidan. But I clarify that I am precisely from Arsenal, and not from other notorious parties of the Kyiv antifa subculture.
LETTERS:
Do you feel any desire to abandon your anti-fascist past and call yourself an adherent of a new ideology that is more comfortable for you? If so, which one?
"Arsenal":
No, such a desire does not arise. But the right in Ukraine create entire battalions and regiments and infiltrate the law enforcement agencies, while the left holds 20-person pickets against the Labor Code.
LETTERS:
How do you justify participating in this war for yourself? Explain the ideological component. Can you explain from the anti-fascist side? If not, then explain as you see fit.
"Arsenal":
The justifications are purely ideological. I hate people who support Russia's imperial myths. I hate people who yearn for the USSR and justify the crimes of communism. I hate Russian imperialists. That's why I'm here. Ukraine has a chance to get rid of this rotting gangrene that has oppressed my people for the last 100 years.
LETTERS:
At the end of the war, which ideological camp do you plan to join? What do you plan to do in general?
"Arsenal":
It's hard to say, here literally every day there is a chance to go to Valhalla (smiles) . Ukrainian neo-Nazis do not really attract me with their racism and Hitlerophilia. What will happen next is hard to say. I advocate further revolutionary actions within the country in parallel with offensive actions in the East. Let's see who will show themselves and how.
"In Ukraine, it is possible to observe a sort of overlap between left-liberals and ethnonationalists."
Да тоже в Западе (извините за по русский но я не знаю по украинский)
It's another example of the human tendency to cling to certain ideologies out of identity rather than principles.