What % of the Ukrainian population would you say is actually an adherent of, or sympathetic to, radical nationalism and/or neo-Nazism? Feel free to differentiate between committed ideologues and people going along for the ride.
Indeed. And this group is largely synonymous with the educated, urban 'middle class' (in quotation marks because they are actually a minority with a much higher standard of living than the majority). So this represents a very politically active, influential class, with a variety of instruments it can use to influence the majority
That is interesting. I assume this social background is characteristic of nationalist intellectuals (or pseudointellectuals, pundits etc.) and not of the actual armed muscle? I can't imagine Azov or Kraken being full of urban middle class people. ?
But also this is my personal experience from living in Ukraine, my family in Ukraine, acquaintances. 20% is the amount of diehard nationalists, who would rather emigrate/die than live in a Ukraine without an ethno-euro-nationalist government
In what way does this make sense? If we take nationalism, then it is literally forbidden with their war being against their own Russian ethnic identity in cahoots with the anti-nationalist Western empire (not saying that the Kremlin empire is much different, but at least they're not banning the Russian language).
And if it's Nazism, then the Ukraine has virtually no Nazis at all. Because the main three characteristics of historical Nazism were:
1) removal of women from education;
2) ban on degenerate anti-music (jazz then, rock now);
3) promotion of animal welfare.
Meanwhile, the Ukraine is characterised by a spread of 4th wave feminism, rock anti-music depicted as a sign of patriotism, and animal welfare utterly neglected. Ergo 0% Nazi.
Neo-Nazis are kinda different from actual Nazis. Neo-Nazis inherit some of the totalitarism and emphasize on pure race or more emphasis whiteness compared to old Nazism that stressed on Germanic race but they all belong to fascism.
I’m just curious how he managed to spit out the number 20% are all Nazi sympathizers without actual stats
20% is the amount of people who are genuine ethnonationalists. You can get this number by looking at what polls (pre-2022 - post-2022 polls are meaningless other than by showing tendencies, changes) show regarding
- the importance of joining NATO
- the importance of Bandera and other ethnonationalist historical figures
- attitudes towards war and peace. Polls showed that the amount of people committed to a military solution of the war int he east (2014-2022) was always between 20-40%. I would interpret the difference as being composed by 'fellow travellers'
'Nazism' is a particular subculture/set of historical signifiers. I don't think it's particularly important how many people appreciate these signifiers (eg the swastica). Obviously, if many people appreciate them, that means something. But, for instance in Israeli society, most people think Nazism was bad. But Israeli society is one of the most fascist, social nationalist societies on earth (if not the most).
In Ukraine it's a bit different, and Nazi symbolism is quite popular nowadays. But the popularity of this symbolism isn't exactly the same as the amount of people genuinely committed to ethnonationalism.
Also keep in mind that in wartime, the amount of people externally committed to ethnonationalism has risen to 60-80% (or 100%, depending on the context). But most people just use this as a mask to avoid repression
In what way can the yearning to become an American colony in NATO be misconstrued as a part of ethnonationalist agenda? Sure, we might be talking semantics here (such as calling Lee Syng Man "nationalist" and Kim Il Sung "communist" in the 1950s' Korea), but this is just getting ridiculous.
What is nationalism? An ideology that focuses on the history of the particular nation as apposed to either monarchy or economy. The essence of the Ukrainians lies in their belonging to the East Slavic language group and the Orthodox Judaeo-Christian church.
NATO is a bloc of the American Empire whose whole point is anti-nationalist par excellence, a melting pot, a cosmopolitan project.
Of course, one could say that Russia is cosmopolitan, too. And that Judaeo-Christianity is catholic by its own admission, against phyletism and such. But guess what, Russian nationalism does not consider the RF to be a Russian state either (it's not).
And regarding the polls... How is exterminating your own population in a war with your brotherly nation in service of a foreign multiculti empire "nationalist" in any meaningful way? It is liberal. It is pro-Western. But not reactionary. It could be seen as hateful only insofar liberals are hateful towards tradition.
And regards various polls - I wouldn't count on them as modern Western sociology considers women to be equal to men, even though women do not fight wars. My mom for one is brain-damaged in her love for Zelensky and America - but guess what, she cooks for my useless Nazi ass instead of going to die for her beloved Jews in Bakhmut.
A few additional questions: 1, given how much Bandera has been whitewashed in modern-day Ukraine, do you think if a Ukrainian expresses positive attitude toward Bandera, they should automatically be seen as radical nationalists, or Banderite?
2, I have seen a lot of remarks online framing that western Ukrainians in general want to genocide all those in East Ukraine
3, how does the data you just give compare to other countries?
1) Most people nowadays will say Bandera is great. That's because if you say otherwise, nationalists will visit you and force you to apologize on camera, and you might have to get acquainted with a bottle in the process.
Also, most people have little idea who/what Bandera was. He is portrayed as an abstract 'Ukrainian patriot' in the media. I remember when I was a school teacher, I even had students who didn't know who he was - they just didn't care much about school
2) West/East Ukraine is overemphasized. There are certainly huge cultural and political differences between the two regions. However, it isn't the 'west Ukrainain elite' in charge of things. Poroshenko, Zelensky, all the richest Ukrainians are all not from western Ukraine.
3) I don't know how to compare to other countries. Certainly in most countries I have lived in, there doesn't exist very strong subcultures/paramilitary formations of ethnonationalist groups. Nor do they have long standing separatist wars. But I think the situation in Ukraine is comparable to other countries - for instance the role of nationalist paramilitary organizations in post-1990s Armenia.
What % of the Ukrainian population would you say is actually an adherent of, or sympathetic to, radical nationalism and/or neo-Nazism? Feel free to differentiate between committed ideologues and people going along for the ride.
20%
That is a lot of people
Indeed. And this group is largely synonymous with the educated, urban 'middle class' (in quotation marks because they are actually a minority with a much higher standard of living than the majority). So this represents a very politically active, influential class, with a variety of instruments it can use to influence the majority
That is interesting. I assume this social background is characteristic of nationalist intellectuals (or pseudointellectuals, pundits etc.) and not of the actual armed muscle? I can't imagine Azov or Kraken being full of urban middle class people. ?
Azov is filled with hipsters. If you check the instagram page of any Azovite you’ll see creative moustaches, cafes, clubs, and film camera shots.
This is inverting the standard narrative of fascism in which it is an alliance of elites and lumpen.
How do you get this number(imagination or actual research) and how does it compare with other country?
Statistics I used to come to this are mainly from here
https://arena.org.au/ukraines-borderline-disorder/
But also this is my personal experience from living in Ukraine, my family in Ukraine, acquaintances. 20% is the amount of diehard nationalists, who would rather emigrate/die than live in a Ukraine without an ethno-euro-nationalist government
In what way does this make sense? If we take nationalism, then it is literally forbidden with their war being against their own Russian ethnic identity in cahoots with the anti-nationalist Western empire (not saying that the Kremlin empire is much different, but at least they're not banning the Russian language).
And if it's Nazism, then the Ukraine has virtually no Nazis at all. Because the main three characteristics of historical Nazism were:
1) removal of women from education;
2) ban on degenerate anti-music (jazz then, rock now);
3) promotion of animal welfare.
Meanwhile, the Ukraine is characterised by a spread of 4th wave feminism, rock anti-music depicted as a sign of patriotism, and animal welfare utterly neglected. Ergo 0% Nazi.
Neo-Nazis are kinda different from actual Nazis. Neo-Nazis inherit some of the totalitarism and emphasize on pure race or more emphasis whiteness compared to old Nazism that stressed on Germanic race but they all belong to fascism.
I’m just curious how he managed to spit out the number 20% are all Nazi sympathizers without actual stats
20% is the amount of people who are genuine ethnonationalists. You can get this number by looking at what polls (pre-2022 - post-2022 polls are meaningless other than by showing tendencies, changes) show regarding
- the importance of joining NATO
- the importance of Bandera and other ethnonationalist historical figures
- attitudes towards war and peace. Polls showed that the amount of people committed to a military solution of the war int he east (2014-2022) was always between 20-40%. I would interpret the difference as being composed by 'fellow travellers'
Check out this article for some of these statistics https://arena.org.au/ukraines-borderline-disorder/
'Nazism' is a particular subculture/set of historical signifiers. I don't think it's particularly important how many people appreciate these signifiers (eg the swastica). Obviously, if many people appreciate them, that means something. But, for instance in Israeli society, most people think Nazism was bad. But Israeli society is one of the most fascist, social nationalist societies on earth (if not the most).
In Ukraine it's a bit different, and Nazi symbolism is quite popular nowadays. But the popularity of this symbolism isn't exactly the same as the amount of people genuinely committed to ethnonationalism.
Also keep in mind that in wartime, the amount of people externally committed to ethnonationalism has risen to 60-80% (or 100%, depending on the context). But most people just use this as a mask to avoid repression
In what way can the yearning to become an American colony in NATO be misconstrued as a part of ethnonationalist agenda? Sure, we might be talking semantics here (such as calling Lee Syng Man "nationalist" and Kim Il Sung "communist" in the 1950s' Korea), but this is just getting ridiculous.
What is nationalism? An ideology that focuses on the history of the particular nation as apposed to either monarchy or economy. The essence of the Ukrainians lies in their belonging to the East Slavic language group and the Orthodox Judaeo-Christian church.
NATO is a bloc of the American Empire whose whole point is anti-nationalist par excellence, a melting pot, a cosmopolitan project.
Of course, one could say that Russia is cosmopolitan, too. And that Judaeo-Christianity is catholic by its own admission, against phyletism and such. But guess what, Russian nationalism does not consider the RF to be a Russian state either (it's not).
And regarding the polls... How is exterminating your own population in a war with your brotherly nation in service of a foreign multiculti empire "nationalist" in any meaningful way? It is liberal. It is pro-Western. But not reactionary. It could be seen as hateful only insofar liberals are hateful towards tradition.
And regards various polls - I wouldn't count on them as modern Western sociology considers women to be equal to men, even though women do not fight wars. My mom for one is brain-damaged in her love for Zelensky and America - but guess what, she cooks for my useless Nazi ass instead of going to die for her beloved Jews in Bakhmut.
A few additional questions: 1, given how much Bandera has been whitewashed in modern-day Ukraine, do you think if a Ukrainian expresses positive attitude toward Bandera, they should automatically be seen as radical nationalists, or Banderite?
2, I have seen a lot of remarks online framing that western Ukrainians in general want to genocide all those in East Ukraine
3, how does the data you just give compare to other countries?
1) Most people nowadays will say Bandera is great. That's because if you say otherwise, nationalists will visit you and force you to apologize on camera, and you might have to get acquainted with a bottle in the process.
Also, most people have little idea who/what Bandera was. He is portrayed as an abstract 'Ukrainian patriot' in the media. I remember when I was a school teacher, I even had students who didn't know who he was - they just didn't care much about school
2) West/East Ukraine is overemphasized. There are certainly huge cultural and political differences between the two regions. However, it isn't the 'west Ukrainain elite' in charge of things. Poroshenko, Zelensky, all the richest Ukrainians are all not from western Ukraine.
3) I don't know how to compare to other countries. Certainly in most countries I have lived in, there doesn't exist very strong subcultures/paramilitary formations of ethnonationalist groups. Nor do they have long standing separatist wars. But I think the situation in Ukraine is comparable to other countries - for instance the role of nationalist paramilitary organizations in post-1990s Armenia.